solved Group Invitations

Ceri
Ceri
@adolygwr
8 years ago
370 posts
Two questions:-

1. Is there a way for me to invite all members to a group created by another member?

2. As site admin is there a way for my icon to appear in the members list of a group created by another member?

I may have enquired about this before but I have forgotten the response :(


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Ceri Shaw - AmeriCymru

updated by @adolygwr: 03/07/17 07:47:14AM
brian
@brian
8 years ago
10,148 posts
Ceri:
1. Is there a way for me to invite all members to a group created by another member?

There is the Invitations module:

https://www.jamroom.net/the-jamroom-network/networkmarket/291/invitations

but it's not specific the Groups module - but a profile owner could sent out an invite for the group.

Quote:
2. As site admin is there a way for my icon to appear in the members list of a group created by another member?

I think if you JOIN the group it will show - since an admin automatically has access to all groups, there's no need to join, but I think if you JOIN the group your image will show.

Let me know if that helps.


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Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net
Ceri
Ceri
@adolygwr
8 years ago
370 posts
Hi Brian

The group in question does not appear on my Groups invitation dropdown list unfortunately.

Also I do not seem to have a 'Join This Group' button or link anywhere on the group page. I know I have access to it and can post on it BUT I need my icon to appear as a member AND I need to be able to invite either A. my followers or B. All site members to the group. At the moment it does not appear that I can do either unless I am missing something obvious?


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Ceri Shaw - AmeriCymru
michael
@michael
8 years ago
7,715 posts
The invite module allows for an Invitation Type option in the QUOTA CONFIG to allow you to send to followers or email list:
Quote: Select who the user is allowed to invite:

Followers - User can only invite existing followers *
Email Address List - User can import a list of Email Addresses to invite
Both - User can select either option

Or you could, as the admin, use the newsletter system to send to everyone.

If Im understanding correctly:
'ceri' creates a group "dog lovers" then 'michael' wants to send an invite out to everyone in "dog lovers".
No, unless 'michael' is connected to the 'ceri' profile, that can't be done. ( protection against 'ceri' not wanting 'michael' to send out that invite.)
Ceri
Ceri
@adolygwr
8 years ago
370 posts
The problem is this. A member has created a group...here it is:- https://americymru.net/william-a-parry/group/124/fans-of-sir-tom-jones

He does not have many followers, consequently he cannot invite many people. I assume that if I were a member I could? BUT I cannot join so this group does not appear in my invitation list.

On Ning when somebody started a group I would join in order to demonstrate that I supported their efforts. I would also invite either my friends OR all members so that the group got off to a flying start .

If it isn't possible to invite people I dont see Groups playing much of a role in site development. Of course I could send out a newsletter but I try to keep those to a minimum because there are always a few unsubscribes after an email blast. In my experience people don't tend to unsubscribe after a group invite....they either join or ignore it.


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Ceri Shaw - AmeriCymru
Ceri
Ceri
@adolygwr
8 years ago
370 posts
What I am trying to get across is that groups as presently constituted are largely redundant. Let's suppose that a new member wants to start a group....who does he/she invite? Worse still the same situation applies to ALL members because their friends/followers were not imported from Ning. The only way to make this feature work imho is to allow the site admins to fully join new groups and send out mass invites.


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Ceri Shaw - AmeriCymru
michael
@michael
8 years ago
7,715 posts
I think I see what you're saying: When a user joins a group, they should be able to invite THEIR followers to the group too via the invite module.

Like saying: "Hey, I joined this group, come be here with me."

Not enough to send a message via that users status update? A status update of "Hey, I just joined THIS group xxxxxx see you there....", which would go out to all that users followers, inadequate?
Ceri
Ceri
@adolygwr
8 years ago
370 posts
Another point occurs to me. Is it entirely fair that everyone on the site can join groups EXCEPT the site creator and admins? On the AmeriCymru Ning site people started groups frequently and occasionally those groups were little more than fronts for political hijacking purposes. AmeriCymru is a strictly non-political site but of course some people always like to push the boundaries if they can. My policy of joining every new group was in part a response to that danger.

Of course I can always employ the administrative sledgehammer and delete groups which are encouraging people to break site rules BUT I would prefer to employ a gentler approach if possible i.e. simply posting and reminding people of said rules.

As presently constituted could a group creator simply delete my remarks and remind me that I am not a member? If so then I would have no control over a section of the site short of employing the nuclear option i.e. the delete button!


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Ceri Shaw - AmeriCymru
Ceri
Ceri
@adolygwr
8 years ago
370 posts
michael:
I think I see what you're saying: When a user joins a group, they should be able to invite THEIR followers to the group too via the invite module.

Like saying: "Hey, I joined this group, come be here with me."

Not enough to send a message via that users status update? A status update of "Hey, I just joined THIS group xxxxxx see you there....", which would go out to all that users followers, inadequate?

Yes up to a point BUT my main beef is that I cannot join groups unless I start them. That is dangerous imho (see my previous post). What I want is this:-

1. Someone starts a group on the site.

2. I join it and my icon appears in the members list AND the group appears in my invite list.

3. Assuming that the group founder is agreeable (and in 8 years of running the site I have not come across a single case where they were not) I send out an invite to all members.

That way I get to keep control of groups without appearing to be dictatorial (at least I am a member of the group if I have to intervene) AND I can help members set up, hopefully, lively and active groups by inviting the members that they cannot.

Sorry to bang on about this at such length but groups can be a major asset AND a major liability and it is crucial imho that admins have both absolute AND granular control to make them work.


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Ceri Shaw - AmeriCymru
Ceri
Ceri
@adolygwr
8 years ago
370 posts
Of course nothing I have said above applies to private groups which are an entirely different kettle of bananas :)


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Ceri Shaw - AmeriCymru
michael
@michael
8 years ago
7,715 posts
Admin has access to all groups, there is nothing on the admins site that they cannot access.

What do you imagine would be different if an admin clicked the join button vs not clicking it?
michael
@michael
8 years ago
7,715 posts
The invite module is coded in a way that allows the inviter to share things on their profile that are in a datastore and have a title.

To make this work with groups it would require the Invite module to know that the groups module exists and compensate. Its a big change, I'll ask the others about it.
Ceri
Ceri
@adolygwr
8 years ago
370 posts
michael:
Admin has access to all groups, there is nothing on the admins site that they cannot access.

What do you imagine would be different if an admin clicked the join button vs not clicking it?

Other members of the group would know that the site admin/s was a member. That, in my experience, is NOT a small consideration.

Also. I am hoping that, if I can join new groups it will also mean that I can invite to them (for the reasons described above). If I go here:- https://americymru.net/invite/create and check the list of groups I can invite to I do not find this new group on the list. That means I cannot assist in making new groups grow.


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Ceri Shaw - AmeriCymru

updated by @adolygwr: 11/15/16 10:28:07PM
Ceri
Ceri
@adolygwr
8 years ago
370 posts
OK many thanks. Perhaps I should explain my paranoia about Groups :)

Back in the bad old days of Ning2 we had a Group moderators password 'socially engineered' by a suspended member,. Group mods on Ning2 can delete not only the Group of which they are a moderator but ALL Groups on the site. That is precisely what happened. 122 Groups were deleted in about 5 minutes and 6 years worth of content was lost. Ning was unable to restore anything more than the logo and introductory text on the group home page. Everything else that I was able to salvage (about 20% of the total) had to be found, copied and pasted from the Wayback Machine.

Now I know that there is no similar danger here BUT I really don't want features on the site that I do not:-

A. Have complete control over and,
B. That it is not evident that I have complete control over.

Another option would be to enable the site admin to disallow members from creating groups. That way if a member wanted to create a group they could ask me and I could create it for them. I assume that if I do that I can subsequently invite all members to join.


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Ceri Shaw - AmeriCymru

updated by @adolygwr: 11/15/16 10:38:16PM
paul
@paul
8 years ago
4,326 posts
OK - Have read through this thread and just want to specify what you think is needed.

1) Admins to be able to join groups as a normal member, and show as such in the group member list.

2) Admins to be able to invite other site users to agroup they are a member of.

Is this basically the idea?
Thanks
Pa


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Paul Asher - JR Developer and System Import Specialist
Ceri
Ceri
@adolygwr
8 years ago
370 posts
Hi Paul

Yep thats it :) That will enable site admins to more effectively moderate groups and prevent them becoming semi-autonomous and potentially unruly. It will also mean that site admins can actively support and promote groups i.e. get behind site members who want to build something specific on the site.

If that solution involves too much work then the option to allow or disallow site members from creating groups would also work. Groups could then be created by site admins at members request. Site admins would then automatically be members of all groups and presumably able to send out mass invites? I am assuming that would be easier to implement?

Cheers

Ceri


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Ceri Shaw - AmeriCymru
paul
@paul
8 years ago
4,326 posts
Quote: If that solution involves too much work then the option to allow or disallow site members from creating groups would also work. Groups could then be created by site admins at members request. Site admins would then automatically be members of all groups and presumably able to send out mass invites? I am assuming that would be easier to implement?
That's doable now. Just disable the Group module in your member quota. The only cavaet would then be that groups created by admin would be under the admin profile.
But I will checkout allowing admins to join groups 'officially' and think about a way to allow admins to mass invite to third party groups.


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Paul Asher - JR Developer and System Import Specialist
Ceri
Ceri
@adolygwr
8 years ago
370 posts
I'm having a 'Why didn't I think of that!!!' moment :)

I guess I can control groups via the quota system BUT I think the ability to join and promote other members groups is a better option.

As I said earlier in this thread groups can be a bit of a minefield. This is because you need to avoid stifling members creativity whilst retaining the right degree of control. You also need to be able to support members when they create what may turn out to be a major asset to the site.

I believe that giving site creators and admins the ability to join groups created by other members and have their icons appear on the members list would be a big plus. Similarly I believe that allowing the site creator and admins to send out group invites to all members would enormously enhance the value of this feature.

But then I guess I've already made that clear :)

I am only raising my concerns about this now because we have had our first new group created on the AmeriCymru site by a 'rank and file' member since transitioning to Jamroom. This caused me to pay attention to the Groups module for the first time. We are enjoying such success in other areas because of all the wonderful new features we have at our disposal that I had barely looked at Groups before now.

My only concern in raising these questions is to ensure that Groups become a more powerful tool on the platform and that we avoid some of the problems that arose with them, for me and other site creators, on Ning .


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Ceri Shaw - AmeriCymru
paul
@paul
8 years ago
4,326 posts
Allowing 'admins' to 'officially' join a group is a simple template mod. and I've added this in the next Group module release. Admin can maybe then use a Newsletter to promote a group.


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Paul Asher - JR Developer and System Import Specialist
Strumelia
Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts
This issue of wanting Admins to be able to actually officially 'join' a Group and be seen by members as being in the member list was discussed off and on almost a year and a half ago, when Jamroom was just in the midst of creating the Groups feature for us Ning refugees...prior to that Jamroom did not have a Groups feature.
Makes for an interesting read and a trip down Memory Lane as well... ;)
https://www.jamroom.net/the-jamroom-network/forum/ning-to-jamroom/31648/groups-no-join-or-follow-but-nonmembers-can-comment/search_string=Groups


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...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015
Ceri
Ceri
@adolygwr
8 years ago
370 posts
paul:
Allowing 'admins' to 'officially' join a group is a simple template mod. and I've added this in the next Group module release. Admin can maybe then use a Newsletter to promote a group.

Many thanks.....that will be an enormous help :)


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Ceri Shaw - AmeriCymru
Ceri
Ceri
@adolygwr
8 years ago
370 posts
Strumelia:
This issue of wanting Admins to be able to actually officially 'join' a Group and be seen by members as being in the member list was discussed off and on almost a year and a half ago, when Jamroom was just in the midst of creating the Groups feature for us Ning refugees...prior to that Jamroom did not have a Groups feature.
Makes for an interesting read and a trip down Memory Lane as well... ;)
https://www.jamroom.net/the-jamroom-network/forum/ning-to-jamroom/31648/groups-no-join-or-follow-but-nonmembers-can-comment/search_string=Groups

Thanks Strumelia....will take a look at that :)


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Ceri Shaw - AmeriCymru
Strumelia
Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts
Ceri:
Many thanks.....that will be an enormous help :)

Ditto- this is a very welcome feature- thank you !


--
...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015