Can de-activated members continue sending private notes if still logged in?

Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts

I'm a bit puzzled-
Last night while having some difficulties with a member who was unhappy about site rules and threatening to leave, they posted a public thread that was kind of a drama queen ploy. I had to go to bed and didn't want them posting any weird stuff while I was asleep- I'd pick up my correspondance with them in the morning. So I locked that thread and de-activated their profile to disable any actions while I slept.
This morning I found they had written me two private notes that were time-stamped well after I had de-activated them, and i wonder if they may have been busy to other members they had on their follow list as well. I assume they had stayed logged in during all this.

I thought that de-activating them would prevent them from sending any PMs at all? Or can they still ONLY send to master admin? Or does it not work until they log out and then try to log back in? Or was the timestamp perhaps not accurate and they had actually sent the notes before I de-activated them?
I just really wonder if they were still able to keep sending PMs to other members after I de-activated them, if they had remained logged in.

Any clarifications on this? Thanks!

--
...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015
updated by @strumelia: 01/15/17 11:53:55PM

@brian
8 years ago
10,148 posts

Private Notes are a "user" level option - i.e. each user gets their own inbox. Making a PROFILE inactive will simply prevent that profile from being visible on your site.

To keep the USER from signing in or doing anything on the site you need to:

1) set the "user_active" flag to 0 in the DB (by default this does not show in the user settings form, but I think you can set this up in the form designer)

2) go into Dashboard - Users Online and click "log off" next to the user

Let me know if that helps.

--
Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net

Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts

Oh Boy I really need to be able to do this when necessary. Wish I had known this, since I think that member spent half the night sending weird PMs to other members drumming up drama over her leaving....all while I slept peacefully thinking she couldn't do anything until morning. =8-0

I need a bit more stepbystep detail as to how to set that in the form designer though.

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...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015

@brian
8 years ago
10,148 posts

Go to the User Settings form and click on the "Form Designer" button. Create a new field called "user_active" and set it up as follows:

Label: "User Active"
Sub Label: (leave empty)
Help: whatever you want for help
Field Type: text
Field Options: (leave empty)
Default: 1
Validation: (number) a whole number greater than or equal to 0 (zero)
Minimum: (leave empty)
Maximum: 1
Display Groups: select "master admins" (or profile admins if you want your admins to have access)
Required: check
Active: check

Save that and you'll now have a new "User Active" field in the User Settings form.

Set the value for a user to "0" and they will not be able to log in. Set it back to "1" and they can log in.

Let me know if that helps.

--
Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net

Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts

Ok this appears to be in place now- thank you Brian! yay.

I'd like to CHANGE the language for the other original "profile active" checkbox under the Profile TAB however, because it's now confusing with this newer function active.

I want to change the original "Profile Active" checkbox now to read "Profile Visible" with the help to read "uncheck to cloak profile from non-admin members"...so this will be clearer.
But I can't seem to find this language under the Profile Form Designer...? Can you please point me to locate that so I can change the checkbox language for "Profile Active"?

--
...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015

@brian
8 years ago
10,148 posts

That field is only visible to admin users so cannot be translated - sorry!

--
Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net

Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts

What the... ?? =8-* lol!

It does seem misleading because unchecking it does not really prevent the member from 'acting'. Thus re-checking it would then reveal whatever dastardly things they might have posted while supposedly being 'inactive'. Should be called something to do with visibility. And the two checkboxes are then needing to be clearly differentiated.

--
...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015
updated by @strumelia: 10/06/16 02:00:22PM

@brian
8 years ago
10,148 posts

It's important to remember in Jamroom that there are 2 entities for a user - a USER account and a PROFILE. Multiple users can be on a profile, and multiple profiles can be attached to a single user. This is why there is a separate ACTIVE flag for the 2.

- the ACTIVE flag for the user controls if the USER account is active. This will affect whether the user can log in or not

- the ACTIVE flag for the profile sets whether or not the PROFILE is visible or "active" in the system.

You would not want to set the profile inactive to prevent 1 user from logging in if there were 5 users attached to the profile, just the same that you would not set one of the users inactive if you wanted to disable the profile for all 5 users.

We could probably add this as a core provided option in the User Account area, but I hate adding additional fields that are only needed 1% of the time. Every time we add ANY new config option or field it is going to confuse some users, which we'd like to avoid. No matter what we set the label and help to be we will get questions in the forum here asking this exact same thing - what is the difference.

If you are worried your admins are not going to understand this, I'd send them an email outlining the difference, or post a private message to them with something they can reference.

--
Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net

Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts

Brian- is there no place for me to at least adjust the language for the: ? Help message on that Profile "active" checkbox setting?

I understand all you are saying Brian. I do still think it's confusing to have the language for the profile VISIBILITY setting as using the word "Active" rather than the word "Visible" or "Cloak"...the word Active implying user action, thus unchecking it makes me think i'm disallowing the profile from taking actions on the site....when that's not what it's doing. Could be people like me don't have developer language definitions of certain words in our mindset...rather we have the common person's usage definitions by default in our mind.
But hey I do hear you and thanks so much for helping me add the new form designer field which is going to get some use on my site for sure! We get at least one weirdo per year that slowly becomes kooky on us and needs to be 'disabled' from doing anything, at least for some time period.

--
...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015
updated by @strumelia: 10/06/16 02:42:36PM

@brian
8 years ago
10,148 posts

When you set the Profile Active setting OFF, it means the profile is no longer "active" on the system. It's not "cloaked" - it's just not active so won't appear on the site.

I'm not sure what wording would be better to describe something that is not 'active' than "Profile Active". But I can check it out. If it's confusing then we'll want to try to find a better way to possibly explain or link it up to documentation or something.

--
Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net

Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts

I'd be thrilled if the "Profile Active" label to the left of the checkbox was just changed to "Profile Active/Viewable". Speaking for myself, I think it would be much clearer to all 'regular folk' that way.

--
...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015

Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts

Just wanted to say how great this is- a few posts up where Brian walked me through creating a new "user_active" form designer Field.
I notice on the user's Account settings, the field is automatically set to "0" (completely inactive) while their membership is pending approval by Admin. And that once I approve them, that setting is automatically set to "1" (active). And of course now I can quickly set it to either 1 or 0 with a simple checkbox.
If I'm not mistaken, this acts the same as setting a user back to 'pending', right?
Anyway, it's cool and soooo useful. Thanks for helping me figure out a solution.

--
...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015
updated by @strumelia: 10/11/16 02:15:08PM

@michael
8 years ago
7,746 posts

Strumelia:....If I'm not mistaken, this acts the same as setting a user back to 'pending', right?.....

Pending also has its own table, so if you turn it back to in-active ( 0 ) that wont put it back in the pending list, but it is in the same state. correct.

@researchcooperative
8 years ago
694 posts

Offtopic:

This discussion reveals something very organic about the Jamroom structure.

It reminds me of antibody/antigen interactions in immunology. Antigens are the profiles, and antibodies are the users who attach to them. And these users may have profiles attached to them, thus amplifying the immune response in a kind of cascade.

Or are we talking about synapses and branching nerve junctions, and the core memory/impulse interaction system for a future AI?

--
PJ Matthews, Kyoto
Migrated from Ning 2.0. Now at Jamroom 6 beta and using Jamroom Hosting for The Research Cooperative (researchcooperative.org)

@paul
8 years ago
4,331 posts

Nice analogy Peter - If only I understood it lol

--
Paul Asher - JR Developer and System Import Specialist

@researchcooperative
8 years ago
694 posts

Likewise!

--
PJ Matthews, Kyoto
Migrated from Ning 2.0. Now at Jamroom 6 beta and using Jamroom Hosting for The Research Cooperative (researchcooperative.org)

Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts

paul:
Nice analogy Peter - If only I understood it

Ditto! (feeling kinda dumb now...go get 2nd cup of coffee..)

--
...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015

@michael
8 years ago
7,746 posts

antibody (users) / antigen (profile) : so an antibody can have multiple antigens and and antigen can have multiple antibodies. One antibody could have 10 or more different antigen (if allowed by the admin user). Or a single antigen could have 10 different antibodies.

The properties of an antigen are defined by Quotas. There will be exactly as many different types of antigen as there are quotas defined. (it is possible to have 2 quotas EXACTLY the same, but whats the point.). Each antigen can only be defined by a single quota. It cant be two different types of antigen at the same time.

Glad we got that sorted in a language thats familiar to you.

--edit--
AI is exciting, good article on it here:
http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-1.html
updated by @michael: 10/14/16 11:51:20PM

Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts

michael: (it is possible to have 2 quotas EXACTLY the same, but whats the point.).

You could use it as a way to categorize certain types of users, without restricting what they can do. Would actually be simpler than using a separate spreadsheet. "Users who have made past donations at some time"..."Users who have been rude or troublemakers in the past"..."Users who expressed interest in buying something"..."Older or disabled users who might regularly need extra site help from admins"....

--
...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015

@paul
8 years ago
4,331 posts

...or you could just add an admin only custom select field with those options to the profile :-)

--
Paul Asher - JR Developer and System Import Specialist

Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts

paul:
...or you could just add an admin only custom select field with those options to the profile

Smarty pants!

--
...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015

Elise
@elise
8 years ago
249 posts

Thanks so much for posting this Strumelia. I had no idea users were not "banned" when their profile was inactive. This is a really important feature and I thought it was built in (meaning that when a profile was set as inactive, it prevented the user from doing anything).

I'll add the field on the form as described here.

Thanks!

Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts

The fact that both you and I thought that 'inactive' members were prevented from doing ANYthing on our site indicates that the function description or labeling is not clear enough to us non-programmers. This could actually lead to big problems if a troublesome member is set to 'inactive' yet continues to send out all kinds of damaging private notes unbeknownst to the admin until too late. I feel it's confusing enough to warrant more obvious language/labeling or help message... or something.

--
...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015
updated by @strumelia: 10/15/16 06:06:21PM

@brian
8 years ago
10,148 posts

I've got an update in the next version of the User Accounts module that will help with this (version 2.0.2) - In the User Accounts data browser there is a new "Block" button to easily block/unblock a user and their profile.

This makes it really easy to see existing blocked users as well as block a user all with 1 click.

There's a new JR6 beta core coming out tomorrow and this will be in the new user accounts module for JR6.

--
Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net

Tatiana Dokuchic
@tatiana-dokuchic
8 years ago
83 posts

Cool stuff, Brian. Thanks!

Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts

Thanks for taking the time to create this Brian- your efforts are much appreciated.
Three questions so I can get this clear in my head:

1) I guess once this is in place, my 'user active, 1/0' new form designer field workaround, as I applied above would be redundant, am I understanding that correctly?

2) Does the new "Block" function make it impossible for a user to do any action at all on our site, including private notes? Including logging in (if they were logged out)? What does "Block" actually mean?

3) Where does this leave the "user Active/Inactive" checkbox function? Unless there is clearer labeling or descriptive help message etc, I fear it will continue to confuse New JR site owners into thinking that making a member 'inactive' makes them unable to perform 'actions' on the site...when it actually doesn't, it makes them hidden from view but they can continue sending private notes to other members...potentially doing lots of damage behind the scenes.

Thanks for sticking with us on this issue.

--
...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015
updated by @strumelia: 10/16/16 12:19:10PM

@michael
8 years ago
7,746 posts

Your form designer work around is still valid, the block function just expands on that. It puts a BLOCK column in the "Data Browser" so with one click you can set user_active to 0 and adds a new user_blocked and sets that to 1.

In the profile form it sets profile_active to 0 too.

So the user account and the profile account are both inactive and cant be used. The users is forced logged out and their session is destroyed so they are outside and cant get back in. Their profile cache is reset so the profile is no longer visible and any cookies are deleted. They will appear to the system as a visitor.

The method of adding user_active to the user account is still a perfectly valid way of stopping them from logging in. They will not be able to login if they have user_login set to 0 BUT if they are already logged in and that is changed from 1 to 0 they will not be forcibly logged out.

Thats where the block button helps. It logs them out if they are logged in.

Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts

Ok so the Block Button will completely disable them from all directions, make them invisible to non-admins, actually log them out and keep them from logging back into that account at all...until you unblock again.

While Blocked, will all their previous content become invisible as well? (forum and Group threads, posts in discussions, comments, videos..)
Would any Group they had created become invisible to other members as well while that person is blocked?
Just trying to get it all straight in ma head....thank you!

--
...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015
updated by @strumelia: 10/16/16 07:00:06PM

@michael
8 years ago
7,746 posts

Groups created by that user will still show.

Guess they shouldn't though. Finding bugs before features are released, too good strumelia.

Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts

brian:
I've got an update in the next version of the User Accounts module that will help with this (version 2.0.2) - In the User Accounts data browser there is a new "Block" button to easily block/unblock a user and their profile.

This sounds great.
I hate to keep harping on this 'other side of the coin', but I still think if you keep the "Profile Active" Checkbox there in the member's Profile page 'profile TAB' the way it is now....that new-to-jamroom site owners are going to assume that making the member 'inactive' with the checkbox is going to prevent them from doing ANYTHING on the site.
Since the 'inactive' member can still send out PMs to other members, this is going to create a BIG problem for somebody at some point in time- it gives a false sense of security for a site admin to uncheck the 'active' box and then walk away thinking all is covered and safe. It caused me a slight problem the other day concerning a member I was in the process of removing... I created this thread because I was wondering HOW on earth PMs were still being sent out by an 'inactive' member. Thankfully the damage was minimal...just a bunch of drama queen farewell private notes calculated to elicit sympathy. But could have been worse, I've dealt with some very vindictive exiting members over the years.
Admins are going to see the profile page settings and checkbox right in plain view before they think to look for buttons in a Data Browser.

Sorry to bug about it, but...isn't there ANY way you can add more clarification to that checkbox, maybe even just in its help(?) message?

--
...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015

@michael
8 years ago
7,746 posts

How should the help button ? read to be maximumly effective?

Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts

Right now it reads:
"If checked, this profile is active and will be viewable in the system to all users"

Perhaps it could instead be...? I don't know, something like:

"If UNchecked, this profile will not be viewable other members. To keep this member logged out and 'block' them from performing any actions, use the BLOCK/UNBLOCK Button in the ACP>etc ____databrowser"

I know it's a bit long, but makes it real clear...?

--
...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015

Strumelia
@strumelia
8 years ago
3,603 posts

michael:
Finding bugs before features are released, too good strumelia.

My brain works in strange ways. Sometimes I'm a genius, and other times I'm totally dense. lol

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...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015

@researchcooperative
8 years ago
694 posts

I wonder of handling the content of blocked users and departed users with invalid email accounts are related matters?

For some sites, it may be desirable to be able keep all content as an archived record. For others, it may be necessary to clean out the cupboards. Here are some possible scenarios.

Blocked members
1. Block but keep all approved content visible.
2. Block and keep all content in archive.
3. Block and discard all content.

Departed members
1. Close account but keep all content visible, and mark the author as a "respected former member".
2. Close account and keep all content in archive.
3. Close account and discard all content.

--
PJ Matthews, Kyoto
Migrated from Ning 2.0. Now at Jamroom 6 beta and using Jamroom Hosting for The Research Cooperative (researchcooperative.org)

@brian
8 years ago
10,148 posts

michael:
Groups created by that user will still show.
Guess they shouldn't though. Finding bugs before features are released, too good strumelia.

This "bug" is only found in Core 6.0.0b3 - it's already fixed for the next beta release.

--
Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net

@brian
8 years ago
10,148 posts

Strumelia:
new-to-jamroom site owners are going to assume that making the member 'inactive' with the checkbox is going to prevent them from doing ANYTHING on the site.

This should not be an issue post-JR6 - it will be very clear how to BLOCK a user account versus simply making the profile OR user "inactive" (which while in your case is simply used to prevent users from logging in, has other uses in multi-profile and multi-user scenarios).

Thanks!

--
Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net

@brian
8 years ago
10,148 posts

researchcooperative:
I wonder of handling the content of blocked users and departed users with invalid email accounts are related matters?
For some sites, it may be desirable to be able keep all content as an archived record. For others, it may be necessary to clean out the cupboards. Here are some possible scenarios.
Blocked members
1. Block but keep all approved content visible.

Set the User Account to inactive.

researchcooperative:
2. Block and keep all content in archive.

Set the Profile inactive as well.

researchcooperative:
3. Block and discard all content.

Delete the profile but keep the user account inactive. You can also block the IP/email address in the Banned Items module.

researchcooperative:
Departed members
1. Close account but keep all content visible, and mark the author as a "respected former member".
2. Close account and keep all content in archive.
3. Close account and discard all content.

All these are the same as above. Jamroom already supports all these scenarios, so you're good.

--
Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net