Important questions about Ning "Groups"

I've been discussing the Groups module with Paul, and I'm concerned that we may have gone about this in the wrong way. I know several of you have already imported and are working on your sites, but I think now is the time to change things if needed to ensure we have a solid foundation going forward.

Part of the issue I believe is a misunderstanding (on our end) about the "groups" function in Ning. I think I have a better understanding of it now, but I want to post what I think our Ning Groups module should function like, and see if that is going to meet the needs of everyone. I believe that ultimately we are going to build a new "Ning Groups" module that will replace the "Discussion Groups" module that is currently part of the bundle (and which I think is not setup correctly to support what is needed).

Here's my understanding of how the Groups should work:

- Profile owners should be able to create groups that are both private and public

- Private groups can be applied to join by users

- Public groups can have anyone that is logged in join in

- A Group consists of "pages" and "discussions"

- "Pages" (created by the Ning Pages module) can be both "stand alone" and part of a group

- "Discussions" can be both stand alone and part of a group (question: are discussions simply comments on a page?)

Let me know if my understanding is correct. I know there are additional details around the implementation, but hopefully the "big picture" is correct.

I apologize for asking for this clarification this late in the process - this should have been ironed out much earlier on, but it's better to get this setup properly NOW rather than later.

Thanks for your feedback!




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Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net
updated by @brian: 07/09/16 09:21:02AM

Hi Brian,

I'm just transferring over some points I made in the other thread. This list is just to get you to Ning 2 functionality.

- a WYSIWYG editor for the main area.
- a heading area for title description etc.
- The ability for for one member to message all members.
- The ability for members to send invites to their friends/followers
- The ability for an admin to invite all network members.
- A group forum whose discussions are isolated from the community forums and from other group forums.
- Group admin tools like adding deleting members, assigning group admins, etc.
- The ability to make pages which stay isolated to that group and automatically linked within it.
- RSS generation for export of discussions and rendering of RSS for importation of external feed.
- They link to the originators profile, but not obtusely, feeling like a "separate space" not a "glorified" profile page.

=======================================

This one was just to expand on the points you brought up.

- Groups can be public or private

- Yes, pages and discussions occur as separate entities within a group. In Ning 2 pages could have comments blocked, they also had an advanced function that allowed the page creator to insert metadata and even codes to the header. You could also set privacy individually. In this sense, pages were a totally different animal than either a discussion thread or a note. (See attached pic)

- Yes getting rid of the profile info (except for a small link back) is crucial to making it feel like a "separate space" not a "glorified" profile page. Listing pages and discussion categories, and whatever other tools, can fill that pace along with the group description.

- I'm not sure how this would work (I'm suggesting using the Master Admin's account). SE suggested "seamless". All I know is the "Community" Groups and Forum linked on the main menu, need to be set-up a little different from the profile groups and forums. Only, in the sense that the site wide groups and discussions need to be represented, categorized, and managed there.

-It's important in all of this to realize that discussions and pages created within (especially private) groups remain only accessible to those groups, and not mixed in with the site wide lists.

- Why do I say "especially". Well even public group stuff can be very specific and themed away from the general thrust of the network. To illustrate, let's say I have an Art group set-up, and one of the discussion threads within it explodes with a thousand posts about Piccaso.

It may be a public group, and the thread's posts might be searchable on site and spidered by Google, and it's pretty benign stuff I don't mind being public.

However, that doesn't mean I want those posts mixed in with my "Community Forum" discussions where I might have four different Ministry related Discussion categories set up, and feeding my front page "Top Discussions".

===================================

This point is about going more advanced as in Ning 3.

- Since groups and multiple instances is one of the few things Ning got right in Ning 3, perhaps it would be helpful to see this before you start.
http://cultivate.ning.com/ning-blog/unleash-the-power-of-groups-on-ning-3-0


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Ken Rich
indiegospel.net

updated by @ken-rich: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

I'm also thinking a Comment Wall where all group members can make a quick post or gab without having to create a new discussion in the Group'Forum. The Group Comment Wall is very popular in my ning site Groups.
Also the Group's identity Picture showing along with the group description, right up front- that needs to be more prominent than the person who created the group imho.
It's like going to a restaurant- first you see the sign, look in the window, maybe read a review- then you go in and see the patrons and begin tasting. All this usually happens before you know who opened the restaurant or who is in the kitchen cooking. You just know you like the place, the food is yummy and you feel you fit in with the other folks eating there.

Discussion are not simply comments on a page- thats the Comment Wall. Discussions are an actual forum area within the group, with various threads started by group members. see: http://mountaindulcimer.ning.com/group/oldstyledronenoterplayers as an example of the Group with Pages, a discussion forum, and a comment wall. Also a group member list with hotlinked avatars showing which is cool.

All this said, we should be able to have the option to allow new activities items from groups appear in the activity feed for the main site area- this brings in new members to join groups. (private groups' latest items will not appear in the activity feed of course)


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...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015
updated by @strumelia: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

Oy, well I'm going to paste my previous post here to stay organized, sorry to duplicate.
I will be mostly not around all this evening and tomorrow morning, so can't respond in much detail after this until tomorrow night, so here's my view again and see yous later. .....
=====================================

Here is what relevant to my own network:
1- first, we need a centralized place on the site's main page and in the nav links where members can simply click on the "Group" naviagation link and see the various groups at one time, like: http://mountaindulcimer.ning.com/groups
(the grid view helps rather than a single column view that I think JR shows, so one doesn't have to click on too many pages to see all the groups...so annoying)
2-then they click to go look at a group, join it,or post in it, and they come to that particalur group's page or location, for example: http://mountaindulcimer.ning.com/group/oldstyledronenoterplayers
If you look there you will see some basic group features:
a) a nice list of the group Members (and their colorful hotlink avatar pictures which is awesome- hover over their pic, see the name and then checkout thier profile page)
b) that group's description and information/guidelines at top
c) an optional text box where the group admin or site owner can place interesting things, video embeds, images, text (the text box is nice but not critical if you can put such rich embeds in the upper Description text area)
d) the group's Discussion Forum, where group members can start and hold discussion threads. Supremely important.
e) a group Comment Wall, where members can post QUICK things- quick questions, and joke around but not really needing to start a thread about whatever it is they are thinking. Members LOVE this, especially if they are newbs and don't even know how to start a discussion thread yet.
f) every network is different, but notice here that the "Pages" in this group I've linked only has a few specific instructional pages which were posted by the Group moderator (who I assigned)- otherwise you get hundreds of random weird pages posted by just anybody, about their goldfish's funeral etc.

In my ning site a new group nowadays is created only by me, after considering whether the subject merits a whole group that is not adequately covered or made cohesive through the regular site forums area. Now we have about 60 groups and they are all very focused on certain aspects of dulcimers and dulcimer playing. This creates a site where members can very easily meet others with their particular interests, and also get help faster without getting lost. Too many scattered subject groups just make it harder to find what our members need, so for me I need to be able to be the only person able to actually create a new group. (I often will assign a group moderator who is a member with limited editing power but only can edit/delete/add things in that group, not site-wide. That's a nice touch Ning added) Our biggest most active group is "Beginner players".. not surprisingly.
And yes, I must be able to set private groups.

so for my own situation, the most important group features are the member list, the group forum area, the Comment Wall, and the ability to allow only admins or moderators to create new groups and group Pages.
Having an option for group members to be able to send message to all other group members is very handy too. I myself chose to turn that off long ago because spammers went orgasmic over that ability and were beating down the doors to get in during the time when Ning was having more spam than it does today. But it's a great feature to have as an option. A member in the New Jersey Group can message everyone about a concert in NJ, but not bore members in Germany with that message for example.
===================================


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...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015
updated by @strumelia: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

- First 3 - correct
- For the forth one I would say, groups can "CONTAIN" pages and discussions but that is not "ALL" they consist of. I think that's especually true in the Ning 3 groups. http://cultivate.ning.com/ning-blog/unleash-the-power-of-groups-on-ning-3-0
- 5th point yes
- 6th point, yes they can be standalone or part of a group, but they are a little more than more than comments on a page. How so?
1) Discussions were organized in categories, and each had their own RSS feed.
2) The rich text boxes allowed videos, music and slideshow players, and just about everything you can imagine as part of (or used in) the discussion - not just text comments.
3) They had tags, social share and featuring tools, and you could attach files.

Here is a Ning 2 discussion (within a group) where blogs were used as discussion comments - lol. http://indiegospel.org/group/bikerheaven/forum/topics/biker-blogs


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Ken Rich
indiegospel.net

updated by @ken-rich: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

Jamroom has many, many different ways of embedding any item in Jamroom (audio, video, etc.) so this is already supported anywhere.


Jamroom has a "ShareThis" module and a "Tags" module so this is already supported as well.

Thanks!


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Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net
updated by @brian: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Right now I'm going to put the existing set of Ning Support modules on hold - most are not setup correctly to be flexible going forward.

Instead, what I am going to focus on is a new "Ning Groups" module that is basically a "wrapper" module around existing Jamroom profile modules - i.e. a group in effect becomes a mini "site" within the profile itself. This allows you to have any of the Jamroom modules that a profile has access too, to also exist "inside" a group.

It's going to be tricky to develop, but (at least at this point) I think it is the best route to pursue since Jamroom already has all these features OUTSIDE of groups, and I want to avoid having to recreate all of them just to be INSIDE a group.

I'm going to get started on it ASAP and I will update if I have further questions or need clarification, and will let you know how I progress.

So for now I apologize but we need to put things into a holding pattern for just a bit until we can re-tool the setup so it's going to be awesome going forward.

Thanks!


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Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net
updated by @brian: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

Yes already supported in a sense, but not implemented. For instance, this thread we are currently in doesn't support that functionality. I find I even have to reopen my comment to attach a pic.

It seems very basic and featureless compared to being in a Ning discussion thread.


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Ken Rich
indiegospel.net

updated by @ken-rich: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

Awesome... Sounds like a good plan to me...


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Ken Rich
indiegospel.net

updated by @ken-rich: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

This is on purpose here - having run a very active forum for over 11 years, all the extra "fluff" in a forum tends to distract users from focusing on the content of the issue. For example, a lot of forums offer "signatures" and other things like that for users - 99% of those are used for users to link to all sorts of offsite places, etc - things that have no bearing on content of the forum.

I know not everyone agrees, which is why that is all supported if you want it - it's just not enabled in our forum.

Despite it looking a bit "vanilla", there are some cool things you can do - like check out this inlined YouTube video:

Logic Pro X Tutorials - Make a song in logic (Knocking on Heaven's Door)

all I did was paste the URL in. URLs are automatically linked up:

https://www.jamroom.net/ning-to-jamroom/forum/announcements/16341/important-questions-about-ning-groups#last

I can make my text be bold or italics or create lists or

We've learned a TON running a forum for many, many years and 90% of the "extras" that people want aren't used by the majority of users, and almost always have no bearing on the discussion at hand.

Just my 2 cents


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Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net
updated by @brian: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

Hi Brian,

Well codes are like second nature to you, so I'm sure you can make these comment boxes do almost anything - lol.

The rest of us are a little more "challenged" and some of our members are totally "hopeless" when it comes to coding.

So on my JAMROOM 5, I would like to have a rich text box in discussion comments to allow users to embed pics and so on, but I don't have a clue how to add that functionality, or how to style my forums along the lines of Genosis.

I'm sure most Ning migrants would feel the same (SE already expressed it). So is there a procedure to follow, a package to buy, an upgrade in the works (Ning bundle), that can get us to that "happy place"...


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Ken Rich
indiegospel.net

updated by @ken-rich: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

Yes - the User Comments module has already been updated with a config option to allow you to use the WYSIWYG editor - the forum will be updated as well.

Hope this helps!


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Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net
updated by @brian: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

All Hail to the JR Team! They listen, and act, and adapt!
Woo-HOOOOO...so happy you are retooling the Groups approach. I am happy to wait while you work your miracles...THANK YOU!!!!!!! :D


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...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015
updated by @strumelia: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

Well - having just posted all that I did above, I believe I am coming back around to having to make it work the way it is (more or less). I've just spent the last hour going in to all the places that I believe I would need to modify to make the groups be a "wrapper" around our other modules, and it's just too many changes at too many places that I'm not comfortable with.

So for now my immediate goal is to get a groups module together that has the functionality of Ning groups in Ning 2.0. I want to get that all working and looking good, and then after that we can look at expanding the feature set of the groups.

The good news is I should be able to get that done more quickly since a lot of the work has already been done.

So I apologize for going back and forth on what needs to be done, but as I learn more about how the groups work and their features I've had to re-adjust my thinking

Thanks!


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Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net
updated by @brian: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

We are ALL having to readjust our thinking these days! Thank goodness I have at least a few brain cells left...


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...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015
updated by @strumelia: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

I purchased the Ning bundle out of support mainly, but I have to say at this point in time they don't make much sense to me.

For instance imho pages and discussion should be sub sections of a group not of the profile.

Maybe this is because I am coming from the Jamroom side and already have basically every module installed, so having Pages and Npages doesn't make much sense.

But the notion of groups does, but not in it's current form. Brian your thinking that groups should in fact be a mini site with most/all of the features available would be my view point as well. And in a sense profiles could already be used as groups, pretty much like I am using profiles as a Business Directory among other things.

Will be interested to see where these progress but for now I am just going to disable them as I don't see a use for these at the moment.
updated by @garymoncrieff: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

Yep - they will be. You purchased the first release of this that actually IS NOT how it needs to work. I'm reworking it right now and I think you'll find it pretty cool even for a non-Ning imported site to use (basically like a "mini site" within a profile).

I'm shooting to have all new versions out by Friday, so hang in there just a little bit longer.

Thanks!


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Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net
updated by @brian: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

I'm happy to wait while you work your magic Brian. Meanwhile I am learning tiny things here and there just by stumbling around. Thank you for your hard work!


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...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015
updated by @strumelia: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

No problem - you'll be happy to know I've got the "Comment Wall" working in groups, which I think you were hoping would be working.

Thanks!


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Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net
updated by @brian: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

No problem Brian, even with buying basically every module available, it still has cost me less than one PhpFox license.
updated by @garymoncrieff: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

Paul and I are working on updating the Ning Importer so it properly sets up discussions in the Profile Groups module OR the Profile forum (if the discussion is NOT part of a group).

One thing that is not clear to me from the Archive data is can "normal" profiles have a profile forum as well or are there only "Group Discussions" and then a "site level" forum? i.e. do we have this:

- site level Forum
- profile level Forum
- profile level group discussions

OR do we just have this:

- site level Forum
- profile level group discussions

Thanks!


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Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net
updated by @brian: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

Hi Brian,

I don't think there were profile level forums in the same way as Jamroom. However there was an area that indexed all of a profile's discussions, that was accessible from the profile and also from the community forum.

Oddly, it only showed community discussions that were started but included replies to discussions whether they were in the community forums or groups.

I also think group discussions are perhaps not profile level in the Jamroom sense, they are group level.

I took screenshots to explain - too many to attach here, so I'll send you an email. Also, Paul has administrator rights on my Ning Pro site, so these are all pages you can visit and view the source code if that helps.


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Ken Rich
indiegospel.net

updated by @ken-rich: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

Thanks Ken - that's kind of what I figured, and I think we have a good setup for this going forward. The updates we need to make are:

- On import, if a discussion is part of a group, add it to that profile's group
- if the discussion is NOT part of a group, add it to the "site level" forum
- Have a setting in the NingJa skin config to define which profile forum is the "site level" forum, and update the skin to include the proper links to it from the front page

Hope this helps!


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Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net
updated by @brian: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

Yes, I think you have that right, at least at first glance.

One thing you also might also might want to consider is categories. I don't know if the archive data included it, but Community Forums had categories, so there may be a slim chance they could automatically be sorted into those categories on import.


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Ken Rich
indiegospel.net

updated by @ken-rich: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

Yeah - the Jamroom profile forum supports categories, so on import if there are categories for non-group discussions, the importer will automatically setup the categories to match.

Hope this helps!


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Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net
updated by @brian: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

Yes, in Ning 2.0, there is a discussion forum within each Group, and then there is a general site-wide Forum area, which can have categories...and each category contains various discussion threads.
The individual member does not actually have their own forum on their personal page- but their personal page has LINKS TO any discussions they have created or posted in, either in groups or on the main site forums.

"- site level Forum
- profile level group discussions"

Yes to the above. But the confusion always occurs for me because in Ning, the word 'profile' always refers to an individual member's personal page (their "profile page"). in JR the term profile means something totally different. So for me, coming from ning, I would label more like:
- site level Forum with categories and discussions
- Group discussions

I only mention this because these big differences in terminology (profiles, users, members, private notes, messages, galleries...) and it's actually the many differences in terminology are what is preventing me from really understanding and grasping the platform structure, and surely will for other ning newcomers. I know you have explained it, but it keeps flying over my head and I may need an actual visual chart/tree. I want to actually bring this up in it's own thread soon because I think it's important for future Ning customers coming here.


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...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015
updated by @strumelia: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

I'm not sure what you mean here - a "profile" in Jamroom is a personal page for a (usually) single user. Note that Jamroom simply adds the ability to have MORE than 1 user tied to a profile (think of a band with 5 members in it - each of those users has a USER ACCOUNT (i.e. what stores their password, email, etc. - not visible to the public) but they are all part of ONE profile.

For example, my Profile is here:

https://www.jamroom.net/brian/action

and it is just me.

Hope this helps!


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Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net
updated by @brian: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

This is the problem I'm having, to think and communicate in such different ways --while having to use the same words yet the words have whole different meanings now.


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...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015
updated by @strumelia: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

I'm not sure I understand. Outside of profile groups I believe all of the Jamroom "names" (profiles, users, image galleries, audio items, etc.) should line up well with the terminology Ning uses. My concern is that I've called something by one thing and you've misunderstood me, so I just want to be sure you know what we're talking about

Did my explanation above about Profiles clear anything up?

Thanks!


--
Brian Johnson
Founder and Lead Developer - Jamroom
https://www.jamroom.net
updated by @brian: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

"I'm not sure what you mean here - a "profile" in Jamroom is a personal page for a (usually) single user. Note that Jamroom simply adds the ability to have MORE than 1 user tied to a profile (think of a band with 5 members in it - each of those users has a USER ACCOUNT (i.e. what stores their password, email, etc. - not visible to the public) but they are all part of ONE profile.
For example, my Profile is here:
https://www.jamroom.net/brian/action
and it is just me."

That DOES help, thank you!
When i read that a profile can have various users and a user can have multiple profiles...(did I even read that somewhere or am i losing my mind?)...or that a forum is within a profile... well it's been very confusing.


--
...just another satisfied Jamroom customer.
Migrated from Ning to Jamroom June 2015
updated by @strumelia: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM

Its a good question @Strumelia. Take a look at this docs page and see if it needs any further explaining.

"Concepts the Admin user needs to know"
https://www.jamroom.net/the-jamroom-network/documentation/getting-started/2167/concepts-the-admin-user-needs-to-know
updated by @michael: 12/29/14 09:23:54AM